Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-5632187-20130203042433/@comment-18016240-20140528182059

140.247.0.70 wrote: Damn, this conversation has gotten a lot of attention. I don't know if this has been said or not, but I'd like to add this to the evidence that Solaire is Lord Gwyn's firstborn. Keeping in mind

1. his unnatural prowess for battle, despite lack of magical enchanted gear

2. his name sake, Solaire - french for sun or solar

3. Search for his own sun - his original inheritance (children often rebel against their parents through inheritance. Wanting to establish and/or maintain their own identity. Just a note)

4. Wielding Great Lightning Spear

5. The first born is no longer a deity, and his identity has been wiped from history, perhaps even from his own memory. Plenty of opening to be Solaire.

This could go on for days. Anyway, if that isn't enough go through the posts or play the game and you'll find plenty of subtle hints to his identity. However, the one thing I wanted to add was the very first time you meet Solaire. BEFORE you know jack about this Lord Gwyn (girly name guy) or his lineage. If you talk to him and exhaust his dialogue after you fight the Taurus Demon, the very last thing he says... and I forget the exact wording.

Paraphrase: "You go on, I just want to stay and stare at the sun for a while." Yada yada, woo woo. Insert dialogue. Then the last thing he says regarding the sun, after a pause for emphasis "LIKE A GREAT FATHER."

Really? Who as a deity resembles the sun? Lord Gwyn. Lord Gwyn is my father essentially. That is a very specific choice of words. The grandest of epic foreshadowing. Play the game to that part and hear it for yourself.

Now, as an anticipatory counter-argument, I'd like to address a few things. Firstly regarding the developer remark about the first-born not being in the game.

First, I'd need to see the exact quote myself, because despite my own paraphrasing, I like to know exactly what was said. Because my understanding is not that he was not anyone in the game, but that his identity would never be explicitly associated with anyone in the game. Meaning that the fact that Solaire is Lord Gwyn's first born will never be explicitly stated in game or out of game.

Secondly, we're talking about a game that revolves around player choice and interpretation. There are facts of Dark Souls that we must come to know for ourselves. Like which ending is truly the "good" ending. Or the meaning of the pendant relating back to the furtive pygmy who we must infer from fact is the ancestor of our character. (side note: remember the misleading remark about the evolving signifigance of the pendant by Dark Souls creator? How he recommended it as a choice for the first gift? Turned out is was a slight prank (his own words). However, I personally believe he recommended the pendant or nothing as a gift because it's a lore friendly beginning that points to a part of the story.)

Anyway, my point is this, when it comes to dark souls, there is no right or wrong way to play. However, as far as the Dark Souls community is concerned, there are right and wrong truths hidden through out the game. For example, despite how you may feel as an individual player, light is ultimately bad and darkness is the agenda within the context of Dark Souls. You can still make the choice, but the meaning remains the same. Honor the furtive pygmy or continue the cycle... blah blah blah.

My point in saying this is: as a game based on coming to correct conclusions within the context of what you are offered: why include so many subtle and not so subtle hints as to Solaire being the firstborn sun (sorry, son)? Leading up to the very cathartic final fight with his very own father (alleged)? Just to say that he's definitely not? I think not. If you've played it, everything in Dark Souls happens for a reason. The clues don't just happen, the dialogue doesn't just happen.

To the people saying that Solaire was just trained by the first-born... that is a reach in my opinion. There's nothing to subtly imply that he is not the son but was rather trained by him. It's just a cop-out way to associate him with the first-born without him being the first-born. A way to make it the truth that everyone can accept. Be bold with your theories. Be audacious. Don't just fall in line.

To the people saying he can't be because a developer made a comment that kind of stated as much... Really? This is Dark Souls. We are it's community. Forget the developers. And if you'll listen to them... Well, who here remembers the huge mystery behind the pendant? Turned out to be nothing like what we anticipated. Coming from the Creator himself. They love messing with us. Making it more challenging for us to come to the light... or the dark? Have you played the game? It's the epitome of just that. You don't get the truth from the developers, you get the truth from the game.

Just a question, How do you know Kingseeker Frampt hates Smough? Because his 12,000 hit soul is worth only one to him. I don't need a developer to tell me that.

Look at the evidence, it's right in front of you. Solaire is the first-born. Otherwise, what does the evidence say? No, he's not.

1.Being good with a weapon doesn't make you that special in Dark Souls, you'll notice that there are a lot of people in Lordran who are capable fighters.

2. My name in Hebrew means "Integrity" or "object of hostility", does that mean that I'm going to hold my ground on every issue or that I'm constantly under attack? Not really, Solaire's name could very well just be a coincidence or an allusion to Icarus' story of wanting to chase the sun, but flying too high and getting burned.

3. The search for his own sun is just a fancy way of saying "I'm looking to make my mark on the world" once you get passed the flowery script, like many undead he's trying to achieve his own goals, that's not special.

4. This argument annoys me, so does that make the Chosen Undead Gwyn if he can cast Sunlight Spear? Cause he can. For all we know Great Lightning Spear is a common miracle among the sunbros, and Solaire just uses it because he's the only sunbro around. (excepting the player who can join hi covenant if he so chooses.)

5. That's not an argument for or against Solaire, sure, the Firstborn's identity and rank have been stripped from him, but that doesn't make him Solaire anymore than Andre or whoever else you want to put forth as a candidate.

To the first point, there's a thing called a red herring, which is pretty much a false, if convincing at the onset, statement or thing that draws attention away from an actual point, as stated above, Solaire has not done anything that would indicate that he's particularly special by Dark Souls standards. He's the guy who likes the sun, nothing more.

To the second, it's more plausible than if he were the actual Firstborn, in fact it's possible that the Firstborn started the Sunbro covenant, and that Solaire's just continuing a tradition passed down the ranks from the Firstborn's own life.

As for the third, being part of the Dark Souls Community doesn't mean that you can just make up what you want and say "It's what happened, to hell with the developers". They're the people who made the game in the first place, pretty sure they know better than anyone who made the game. Yes, the pendant was a joke, but who's to say that they were lying about stating that the Firstborn wasn't in Lordran? In fact, who's to say that Solaire's existence isn't some huge farce to create discussion amongst the community about what is at best a minor bit of fluff that does nothing more than explain why there's pvp and co-op?

The evidence is that Solaire is no more the firstborn than anyone else, that's what it says to me at least.