Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-5632187-20130203042433/@comment-31.33.217.53-20150106131421

'''The firstborn is Sir Ornstein the Dragonslayer. '''

It seems Dark Souls fans are not also Kojiki fans, because their is many references to japanese mythology, and in this case, to Kojiki.

Gwyn was inspired by Jinmu-Tennô. Gwynevere by Amaterasu Omikami (or Himiko, whatever). Gwyndolin by Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto. And the firstborn by Susano'o-no-Mikoto.

'''The firstborn of Gwyn, god of war, bore many similarities with Susanoo, who is the god of tempest and a dragon slayer. '''Also, we know the War God firsborn of Gwyn and Ornstein had the same spear (even though the head of the statue looks like Solaire without his helmet).

The "crime" of Ornstein could have been stabbing / threatning in a verry realistic way Duke Death, best friend of his sire and king, Great Lord Gwyn. Remember Seath fear death so much he has gone insane with time. And Ornstein is the best dragon slayer of the world, Doom incarnate, a living and breathing nightmare for Seath !

Why ?

Because Ornstein was a siscon. In ancient times, japanese Kôzoku also wed within the Kôzoku, and were often rised separately (in different palaces), so they had little understanding of brotherly bonds. That's after the nobles gained influence they started to wed with Fujiwara brides. Whatever Ornstein's feelings for Gwynevere, he protected her with his life, we know first hand it's his character. So when Seath made her pregnant, wich may have caused a lot of pain and sadness for Gwynevere AND Priscillia, Ornstein, who understand their feelings, couldn't bear that disgrace, and even though he knew that could cause a civil war within his father's Kingdom, Ornstein threatened Seath, and probably showed him how weak Seath truely is.

Did anyone here ever fought Seath with Sunlight Bolts as a cleric from Sun Warriors Covenant ? Then, you know how fucking one sided massacre it would have been : Ornstein vs Seath the scaleless. Ornstein would have easily broken the Primordial Crystal, and spanked Seath's ass so hard he would never forgotten this humiliation.

Seath was really shocked by what the Firstborn did. Being Ornstein or Solaire or Andrei or someone else. But if it was Orstein, it fits better, right ?

Ornstein punishment had 2 parts.

First, Gwyn decreed Ornstein lost his status of crown prince. We know Gwyn gave fragment of his Ultimate Soul to some members of his clan, and treated his children has a tool for his royal will (like many parents, even though most of them are no king nor nobles :p). So he take of the fragment of Ornstein, wich made him shrinked. When you kill Smough, Ornstein don't grow up, he regain his true size wich was stolen by Smough (remember his statue has more or less the same size as Ornstein's statue in the entrance of Anor Londo stage level). The design of his armor with a crown was maybe, in fact, a clue for that theory. After he ceased to be part of the royal family, he take of the crown, he had a new golden lion helmet befiting a great legendary knight, but without the Prince part symbolised by the crown.

The 3 other 4 Knights continued to treated him in a special way, like a captain, because they were not assholes, unlike Seath the bitch. Gough probably had a boundless admiration for Ornstein, as the greatest Dragon Slayer ever. The same for the others, who probably continued to act the same as before, just stop to add Prince whenever they say Ornstein's name. That's why even though his name was expunged from anals (or at least the part saying he is Gwyn's son) Orstein remained the "captain" of the 4 Knights.

Why else Ornstein would have the special treatment ? He could have indeed be the favorite of the King, and also because dragonslaying was their main goal, not killing each other. Indeed, it could have been just a belief, and they didn't denyed it... Cyaran was dead, Artorias was dead, Gough was retired... Ornstein coud just have shut up when mortals were saying he was the Captain of the 4 Knights, thus the highest ranked in Gwyn's army. But does that looks like what the noble lion Ornstein would do ? It's true the Lion is not the king of the jungle, far from it, neither even the strongest cat (that's the tiger for you). But even then, Ornstein having a "special soul" unlike the 3 other is more logic.

True, Artorias had a special soul. But maybe he gained it only after he became possessed by the Dark, combining it's power with his might as the strongest swordsman who ever lived (besides of Miyamoto Musashi and Yamaoka Tesshû of course :p). Why else would Artorias have a special soul ? Gough is the strongest archer of all times. Cyaran is the strongest assassin (even though she is really weak and easy pray for us, players). Orstein was special, that's it. And if he was the son of Gwyn, that would explain many thing.

Probably, killing him would have been too much, and he was still useful. That's how he managed to survive his crime and not being exiled.

That's the 2nd part of the punishment, who was probably decreed by Gwyndolin, as the god who punish sins, a place he take from Velka.

Remember Gwyndolin is the shame of the family and a failure as a man (everyone calls Master Gwyndolin a trap  T.T), before Ornstein and Gwynevere were always the favorite children. He took the oportunity to avenge himself in a vicious and elegant fashion, greater than that poor bastard of Cain could have ever done and think. And doing so, Gwyndolin remained blameless, right ? I mean, few are those who foght about it this way, anyway.

Gwyndolin convinced (easily) Smough to stay by Ornstein's side and allowed him to execute Ornstein when the time was right. And Ornstein was convinced to remain to Gwynevere sides, to protect her, maybe he knew it was not her, maybe he didn't. Maybe Ornstein only tought he could convinced the coming Dark Lord to spare Gwynevere whom he protected with his life... no, with his Everything. Men talk with their fists, and Ornstein hoped he could talk with the Dark Lord in this way : "You don't need to harm the Princess, it's me you want. Proove you are the strongest and feast upon this immortal godlike Soul of mine."

Gwyndolin gave the Soul energy who was taken from Ornstein to Smough. This way, Smough could be the bait of Ornstein, even in the case Ornstein wanted to go away or if he knew it was not the true Gwynevere. Ornstein would have obviously wanted his soul back, but couldn't risk an all out fight against Smough, the same for him. Too risky.

So when you kill Smough first, Ornstein take back his power and become the war god anew, even though he is probably not as powerful as he sould be (his speciality his dragons after all, and he should have been able to jump all over the place and launch lighning everywhere... remember dragons fly after all). And if you kill Ornstein first, Smough take the other half of his prize wich he couldn't have before, when Ornstein was well and could still defeat him because of his speed and agility.

About DS2, it is also possible Ornstein survived his fight with us. We know for sure when we kill something, we don't get his entire soul. A part of it escape in Nature, joining the cycle of Reincarnation. Possibly half of this energy, since we can't become as strong as a boss after slaying it (wich implies a great part of the soul energy is lost somewhere between their used to grow stronger / smarter / in size, and the death of the user). So Ornstein may have survived in a way or another after the boss fight in DS1 and regain a part of his former powers after fleeing Anor Londo, his previous purpose accomplished, or maybe he finaly discovered the truth, Gwynevere being an illusion, and fled to found the true one.

Either way, it doens't go against what is stated by Gwynevere's ring about Gwyndolin being the last god in Anor Londo. Because Ornstein lost his godhood, and even if he managed to found it again after Smough's death, he was killed (or fled really diminished) soon after.

But, don't misundersand me. I too like Solaire ~ Sunbro forever ! Yet, it just fit Ornstein to be the Son of Gwyn, that's all. ;)